Episode 92: Did Gibson Abandon Their Own Trademark?

Episode Transcript

Note: a machine made this, so it’s not perfect, but if you’re hearing impaired and have any questions about what we said, please feel free to ask us in the comments or send us an email with the form below. 

Emily: [00:00:00] welcome to the Getoffset podcast. I’m a dumbass and my name is Emily.

Andrew: [00:00:15] my name is Andrew and don’t be so hard on yourself. It happens

Emily: [00:00:20] as did you know that? Me and watch people that read it while people die inside. I swear to God, it would have been just like that would have. Oh, my gosh.

Andrew: [00:00:29] And joining us today is Clint.

Our good friend.

Clint Duke: [00:00:33] Hi, I’m Clint. I practice loving and accepting myself.

Andrew: [00:00:40] Well, thanks for coming on the show. So for those of you wondering what’s going on with Emily, self-deprecation all of us collectively have been talking for about the last 15, 20 minutes now. And

Emily: [00:00:52] I hit the intro and I didn’t hit record.

Andrew: [00:00:56] And it happens. So we are here. We, we got our vocal cords warmed up. You guys missed out on a little bit of goofiness. I think to recap is I got stung by a bee and I just correct. He got stung by a bee and P possibly.

Clint Duke: [00:01:13] Yeah, I deserved it. You shouldn’t inspect your hives barefoot. Let’s put it that way.

Andrew: [00:01:19] And Emily had AI.

Had an experience on reverb where she sold something that was working fine when she sent it, buyer claimed it didn’t work and then refuse to give any evidence for it. Ended up getting itself, sorted out. Emily is soon to receive it back in the mail.

Emily: [00:01:34] Yes, she coming tomorrow, I’m going to film it of Ray unboxing of it.

Andrew: [00:01:39] None of us are convinced. and of course, I’m speaking on Clinton’s behalf here because I definitely had a chance to hear his opinion, until I didn’t get his opinion, but I’m assuming his opinion is, we don’t think it was actually broken. It was user error because it was an envelope filter. Those can be difficult to use.

And based on the video that we were sent for troubleshooting, it looks like there was just some issues with the input levels and that the was giving.

Emily: [00:02:01] Basically the thing about an envelope filter is if, if you don’t turn up the volume on your instrument, it’s probably not going to work.

Andrew: [00:02:09] Wow. Wait a women’s explain to me how envelope filters work.

Emily: [00:02:13] That’s not a thing.

Clint Duke: [00:02:16] I appreciate

Emily: [00:02:17] that. It’s not a thing.

Clint Duke: [00:02:18] I get confused with my pedals too.

Emily: [00:02:21] Yeah. So, I remember the guys in the last video and it kind of when he turns all the knobs, it sounds, but you can hear the vape. Very thank. Swamp swamp and the acoustic amplifier he’s using with this bass guitar.

And, I sent him a message and it said, just said two quick, just three quick questions. just a little bit of troubleshooting. One is the volume turned up all the way on your bass guitar two, if it is, do you know what the output of your pickups is? And three, just in general, have you tried it with another instrument?

And he just, he kind of went off to be honest, he like, I’m not going to send you another video. I bought this for this rig. It doesn’t work for me. Like, okay, well just send it back and I’m getting my, getting my restocking fee, so,

Andrew: [00:03:09] right. I mean, if, if a buyer is, or a seller is trying to be helpful. So here here’s my takeaway.

If you buy something off of reverb and you are having issues with the out of the box messages seller, and if they’re willing to work with you and help you troubleshoot and get to the bottom of it, that is excellent customer service. You don’t even get that in like some guitar shops are like, it’s not working.

Right. They’re like, okay, leave.

Emily: [00:03:33] Well, thank you for saying that because I felt like I was trying to give excellent service.

Andrew: [00:03:38] I think that’s, that is going above and beyond. And I think everyone who receives that kind of service back, if it does turn out to be broken, that’s fine, but they’re trying to work with you.

And so why B, why B. Why be mean, you know, life’s too short to be mean and entitled and all Karen E

Emily: [00:03:55] yeah. Yeah. I mean, and he said that he thought that Paul was going to blow up his amp. I’m like, it’s an envelope filter my guy. Like

Andrew: [00:04:03] I do love hyperbole. It’s, it’s, it’s an effective form of communication in certain.

It is, it is a very effective form of communication, certain circumstances. you know, I would go as far as to say it’s effective in all circumstances.

Emily: [00:04:19] I’d see what you did there. So I’m a, Hey yeah.

So, so y’all know I’m some of, some of the listeners might know Clint from ELD Facebook groups and, his, his brother Cole is one of the hosts of the gear slum. But lent is a guitarist in his own. Right. And also an intellectual property lawyer.

Clint Duke: [00:04:49] Yeah. How

Andrew: [00:04:50] exciting is that? I think it’s pretty sync and exciting.

Emily: [00:04:56] I think you have some exciting guitars.

Clint Duke: [00:04:59] Yeah. I’ve, I’ve been through a lot of guitars, you know, buying and selling and trading. I only have a few now and it’s weird because, In this room, I’m in this, this spare bedroom that has become my office since quarantine. I’ve got an Ernie ball st. Vincent, which is very cool.

Andrew: [00:05:19] those are,

Clint Duke: [00:05:20] I had my eye on it for like years before I finally found a used one that I really liked. It’s the original blue and it’s beautiful.

Emily: [00:05:30] Oh, I love those guitars. They’re so cool. Looking.

Clint Duke: [00:05:33] Yeah. And the neck is awesome. And then downstairs, I have one of Kevin quits. Rayburn’s

Emily: [00:05:42] always a good choice. He makes such great guitars.

I want

Clint Duke: [00:05:45] to do that one

Emily: [00:05:48] and not just design one. I want to buy

Clint Duke: [00:05:53] no, I got lucky with this one B it was a, it was for a charity. but the charity, you know, the charity didn’t really appreciate. Handmade instruments. And so it didn’t sell. And he said, Hey, someone needs to buy this. They’ll get a good deal. And you won’t have to wait two years.

And I said, I could do that.

Emily: [00:06:14] Yeah. That’s, that’s a good way to skip the line.

Clint Duke: [00:06:17] Yeah, I have not regretted it. It’s an awesome instrument.

Emily: [00:06:22] So cool. And such a great guy.

Clint Duke: [00:06:25] Kevin’s a good dude. Yeah.

Emily: [00:06:28] Yeah. Gosh now I’m just like completely like a little flabbergasted by the whole, like, not recording. Like we should be like 21 minutes and it’s my fault that we’re only six minutes in.

So, I mean, I guess the question is at this point, like, do we want to just get into the topic and talk about our sponsors to get at the topic, Andrew?

Andrew: [00:06:51] I, I mean, sure. Don’t ask me what’s new with me.

Emily: [00:06:54] Oh, I thought you were talking about getting stung by the bee. That was a new thing, but I guess that was quite old

Clint Duke: [00:07:00] a year ago.

Emily: [00:07:02] Yeah. Well, everyone missed the story, but just to be clear, introverted, not listen to other people. When he did something that everyone said was a bad idea. I was going to get him stung you’re actually, I kind of think you’re lucky you only got stung once to be

Andrew: [00:07:15] honest. I mean, that’s probably true.

Emily: [00:07:20] Cause was it Hornets?

You said.

Andrew: [00:07:22] Yellow jacket

Emily: [00:07:23] or the base. Okay. I think they can sting more than once too.

Andrew: [00:07:28] They can, and it’s not fun. I’m pretty sure I killed the one that was stinging my leg. Like I smacked it really hard. I’ve kind of like. Dangled off by the stinger for a second and then fell.

Emily: [00:07:38] Oh God.

Andrew: [00:07:40] Does that really lead to graphic?

Should I warned everyone?

Emily: [00:07:44] No, no, no. That was like, perfect. Oh my God. Sorry, go. Okay. What is new with you, Andrew?

Andrew: [00:07:53] nothing is really new with me in the gear world this week, but I did, on a food level. I made carnitas oughta tacos this week and I’m feeling pretty good about it. I, I did flank steak and I make my own Carney item and marinade, using, a number of things.

But one of the things that just really makes it pop is using dried chilies. So

Emily: [00:08:14] yes,

Andrew: [00:08:16] used a bunch of guajillo chilies. I usually use a combination, but that’s all I had left in my stash and I didn’t want to venture out too far in search of just one ingredient. so yeah, no, I did the whole marinate Saturday.

let it the flank of state sit for 24 hours and then, brought it out, seared it over charcoal, got some hardwood, lump charcoal go in pretty dang hot for the couple chunks of Hickory mixed in for some good flavor. And then yeah, chopped it all up, threw it over onto some tacos, no sour cream, because that would be.

Terrible. That’s not what a taco is. You don’t put sour cream on tacos. That’s that’s evil. That’s wrong.

Emily: [00:08:54] Okay. We’ll disagree.

Clint Duke: [00:08:56] Agree to disagree. Yeah.

Emily: [00:08:58] I’m not about to get into how like rude that is, but if we’re going for like authentic taco truck style tacos. Yeah. No sour cream, but no, one’s going to tell me what to do in my taco, my taco, my choice.

Andrew: [00:09:14] Absolutely correct. Putting sour cream on a taco is rude. I agree with you. So that’s more or less what’s new with me for this week. We’ll see what happens next week. I think the plan is to,

Emily: [00:09:29] I

Andrew: [00:09:29] think I’m going in the sexually committed play some more. I, some heavy metal stuff may have a little bit more fun than the heavier side of things.

Oh, that, Oh, I take that back. Okay. One more thing. Since, since I’m already talking and you guys have my attention, I tried something new with my setup. So I’ve got my board, which is my pedal board is set up with an Iridium on it so I can go direct. And I’ve just been plugging the board into my amp at home and turning the Iridium off.

I’m just playing at home like yeah, one amp and the chain is enough. And then I had this thought to myself, I’m like, wait a minute. What would happen if I ran the Iridium into the deluxe? Not supposed to.

Emily: [00:10:08] Yeah, the Emanuel says do not

Andrew: [00:10:11] what I did.

Emily: [00:10:13] Yeah. I think a lot of people have,

Andrew: [00:10:15] and I actually kinda liked it.

I was running the, the AC 30 model into the front of my eye tonking deluxe and Oh, wow. Something about the combination of that worked really. It wasn’t like a huge sound, but it definitely sounded decent. and I actually kinda liked

Emily: [00:10:32] it or is it tone master?

Andrew: [00:10:36] it’s a tone master. You are correct. I am wrong.

I misspoke, fender deluxe, reverb tone master it’s like, when

Emily: [00:10:44] did you get a tone pay gap? Is that a thing? Am I misremembering

Andrew: [00:10:49] cash money. And, I am not very cash money so

Emily: [00:10:53] that wasn’t very cash money of you. Okay. That’s an old, medium missing it.

Andrew: [00:10:59] It’s a meme that doesn’t get enough respect. And I think it needs to be resurrected more frequently because it’s, it’s just very appropriate very frequently.

Clint Duke: [00:11:10] I like it. I’m old enough that I still remember basically all the means my kids tell me, cause I communicate with them.

Emily: [00:11:22] There’s also like, you’re probably right. I had memes when the internet was young. Like I did. I’m probably just a little bit younger than you. And, we had lots of names back then, too, but they were just not called names quite yet.

Clint Duke: [00:11:35] Yeah, I bet you’re more than a little younger than me.

Emily: [00:11:40] That’s 31. I don’t know how old you are.

Clint Duke: [00:11:44] I’m 44 this month. I have two, two of my kids are out of the house. I have two adult kids who are gone.

Emily: [00:12:00] I’m not a regular mom. I’m an old man.

Clint Duke: [00:12:06] I’m an old dad that feels even older.

Emily: [00:12:13] I think you’re saying that technically makes you a young dad. My talk last fall last week about this Andrew, like my grandmother was. Like in her early forties when she became a grandmother.

Andrew: [00:12:25] That, that sounds about right. I mean, that’s where I, that’s where my folks are in their early forties when I, I had my one.

Yeah.

Emily: [00:12:38] Oh. I

Clint Duke: [00:12:39] ended up speaking and doing gear. I ended up with a, a tone master. I was kind of getting rid of stuff and trading around, but I wanted the. The new part of the line, six pod go, which is very cool. And I ended up trading a bunch of stuff and getting rid of my Princeton because I have a Benson that I really like.

And so I never played in the Princeton anymore. And so I won, I ended up with a tome master and I got rid of my, streaming stuff and my, HX stump and, and got the. The pod go, which is freaking awesome. Actually, I don’t know if Cole told you this, but our cousin is in charge of the helix division over there.

Cousin’s husband. Yeah. I’m sorry

Andrew: [00:13:29] to say that again.

Clint Duke: [00:13:30] Eric Klein. At over at line six, he married our cousin. So we keep in touch with him and he’s in, he’s in charge of, of the helix division. You know, the helix was his baby. And so we kind of check out all his new stuff, but like the stomp, the HF stump was.

Just too complex for me. I liked it and I liked playing around with it, but it was kind of too many options and I did it and understand the ball and I got lost. and Eric was like, you need to try the pod go because, because it’s meant for playing around with the normal stuff. I mean, stuff that. 99% of the guitarists want to use.

And it’s totally true. It’s easy to use and have a lot of cool effects and absence and cabs, but I don’t get lost and I can just play it. So I love that thing. So check out that go.

Andrew: [00:14:28] I then want to get my hands on that. It seems like a really, really solid entry level price point with more than entry-level.

like delivery. Cause you figured out that there’s something that for what? Five or 600

Emily: [00:14:42] it,

Clint Duke: [00:14:44] yeah, no, the pod go is four 50 and the whole point was to get to an entry level price point, but it’s got, it’s got most, it’s got most of the functionality of the helix or the HX stop. but the processor is smaller.

So a few things get booted, but basically everything I want. and it has, you know, it has kind of the signal chain set up in, in normal ways. Most of us want to deal with without spending hours. fiddling and seeing if we find something new, there’s just a whole lot of nice, tried and true signal pass that, go through.

I, I really do like it. And for four 50 it was a killer.

Andrew: [00:15:30] Yeah. I mean, it’s

Emily: [00:15:31] smaller than my pedal board even.

Clint Duke: [00:15:33] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s nice. And small still has the treadmill there and I usually don’t use a volume pedal. so it’s been nice to play around with that a little bit. And my kids, like it.

Andrew: [00:15:45] Well, like, I just, I mean, I’ve got a stream and Iridium is my ample, my pedalboard and that’s 400 bucks.

I mean, that’s 80% of the way to the price point. You have to go and that doesn’t even have anything else built into it. So just thinking about it from that perspective is like, wow. so I think that’s one of the things I’m recommending. Like my church gets just as a house. Pedalboard doesn’t need to be super fancy in the ideas, any of the teenagers or anything, adults who come in with their electric guitar and just want to plug and play with the church equipment.

It makes it so much easier to do when you got equipment’s getting shared around like that. And it just makes a whole lot of sense. but previously it was like the, yeah, he looks for was great for that, but he. That’s also 1500 bucks. And so trying to convince the church with a limited budget to spend 1500 bucks versus 500 bucks, I mean, that’s, that’s a big difference.

Clint Duke: [00:16:31] Yeah, totally. And it’s very cool. I, I, Erik showed me around, his offices. like two years ago. and he was showing me some of the stuff they do to make the realistic models, you know, the digital models of aunts and calves and, all sorts of things and the stuff they had in these rooms under lock and key, tons of vintage stuff.

you know, The most expensive and sought after amps and pedals and guitars. And it was, it was just so awesome to stand there and see, yeah, this is what I do for work is I just play this Dumble and, you know, we try to capture the sound.

Andrew: [00:17:15] That’s

Clint Duke: [00:17:16] kind of like your job more than my job right now, or

Andrew: [00:17:18] they

Emily: [00:17:18] can, I don’t know.

I remember. Yeah, that sounds awful. Never was going to be like, your ear is terrible. If you don’t like recreate it, it’s the way they want it. Also, man, that’s just like, that’s a lot of little AB like changing things and then changing the back and then changing them again. It’s like, imagine if you just.

Like we’re at the, at the optometrist’s office and they had that thing in front of you and they were scrolling through those, but it was like your job to not, not make your viciously that you like, but make your vision look just like some like something else that already exists. Wow. No part test

Andrew: [00:17:58] will speak for yourself if someone, so my day job is more like, engineering, our architect, For, it in audio video stuff.

I mean, that’s some of what I do already is a lot of AB work and trying to see what works and what doesn’t. So taking that and kind of transferring it. That actually sounds really neat. I think I’d really enjoy that.

Emily: [00:18:17] Alright, talk to that guy and see how it, I’m sure he likes his job a lot. I just can’t imagine.

I can’t, I don’t have the patience for that. Like my writing it’s like 80% of the way there and then I ship it. I’m not, I don’t have the mindset for perfectionism at all.

Clint Duke: [00:18:35] Well, yeah, he doesn’t do all the AB himself. Let’s put it that way.

Emily: [00:18:39] He just, he does.

Andrew: [00:18:39] He’s he’s the big

Clint Duke: [00:18:40] boss.

Emily: [00:18:45] Yeah. All right. so let’s thank our sponsors.

Andrew: [00:18:50] Yay. I like being, I like thanking people. That’s always nice.

Emily: [00:18:53] Yeah. Hand it to yourself today. It sounds like.

Andrew: [00:18:57] Yeah. I mean, I like to be positive granted. That’s not really a great word in 2020, but

Emily: [00:19:03] yeah. Oh, I get it. All right.

Andrew: [00:19:08] It’s a COVID joke. Thank you. Yeah.

Emily: [00:19:10] Yeah. Our first sponsor is a spun loud effects based out of Seattle, Washington. They just released the blister and peel the two. And that’s a duel. I struggle to call it a dual fuzz, because it can be a dual fuzz, but can it also, it can also be a fuzz and a claim boost or a fuss in a light over driving a fuzz and a distort like.

The the sweep on the blister side, it really does go from a clean boost to nasty Berge of Okta fuzz. It’s really great work. And it’s Andrew’s favorite color.

Andrew: [00:19:46] Yeah, it’s orange. And as we discussed last week, R if we want Cova to stop, we need to buy more orange things. And I know that that might seem like pie in the sky.

Kind of like, Whoa, like, come on, man. Let’s be a little bit more reasonable.

Emily: [00:20:00] When Andrew says by orange things, he means by orange face masks and wear them everywhere.

Andrew: [00:20:06] Sure. I suppose that would probably be very effective since that’s what, you know, all of the doctors are telling us to do. that makes sense.

sorry, that came out sounding way more sarcastic, but I really meant that sincerely like wear a mask. It’s not that hard. It’s really,

Emily: [00:20:21] it’s really the least you can do to, for it to show your love of

Andrew: [00:20:27] others. I’m a fan of it. but you know, I’m, you know, I’m just a guy who believes in a certain religious belief system, that’s about protecting the vulnerable and serving others before yourself.

So, you know, what am I

Clint Duke: [00:20:40] saying? I think Kim cross in that one.

Andrew: [00:20:46] There we go, there we go. I’m working on my orange man or by whatever mask, just wear a mask and also by spun loud because they’re good people and it’s a really cool unit and it’s also orange. So if you buy a mask and you buy an orange one loud pedal, then I think that’s, that’s pretty much the trifecta of perfecting the year 2020.

And I really strongly recommend it

Emily: [00:21:09] was that three things.

Andrew: [00:21:12] Yeah, it’s, it’s an orange, it’s a fuzz and a mask.

Emily: [00:21:16] Okay. I thought you S two orange things. I thought you were calling to orange things. The trifecta,

Andrew: [00:21:22] I mean, it’s a dual pedal. So if you think of it as two pedals in one. It’s like a, the it’s like the Trinity, but instead of three, it’s two, but that’s also really terrible theological analogy that I’m not going to dig into tomorrow.

Emily: [00:21:36] Don’t start, don’t start. Don’t start, don’t start

Andrew: [00:21:41] a

Emily: [00:21:41] pattern such a good time. so, well, who’s our other sponsor. I haven’t heard of these. Schmoozers.

Andrew: [00:21:47] A other sponsor is going to be a Fox Cairo. And I promised I would deliver this in less than 60 seconds. And I’m also counting 60 seconds from when I started.

Yeah. So I’ve got about 50 seconds left to go 45 seconds, every five seconds. All right. So in 45 seconds, 42, I’m going to tell you that I’ve actually been having a huge blast running Fox Cairo lately. For those of you who have bought a pedal topper. Thank you so much for those of you who have body custom pedal topper, you guys are the real MVPs.

And so here’s, here’s how this works is you go to the website and you scroll through the list of artists I’ve partnered with. I’ve partnered with a list of artists, mostly in the guitar community who are also graphic and visual. Artists, you scroll through, check out their portfolio, see what you like. And if you’d like something, reach out to them, send them an email, say, Hey, I want X, Y, and Z.

They’ll design it for you. And then I’ll make it for you. And you get the chance to pay the artist directly. And I can think of no more beautiful thing. And that’s my Adderall.

Emily: [00:22:42] Okay. I think you did it is close, but I think you made it.

Andrew: [00:22:47] It was close, but I made it just

Emily: [00:22:50] under, just. Yes,

Andrew: [00:22:53] 60 seconds or less, like a pizza except no pizza shows up in 60 seconds or less.

That’s really meant to be 60 minutes. So 

Emily: [00:23:02] so, let’s, let’s dig into the topic, which is, I think a lot of, so there’s a lot of armchair lawyers out there. Who are, who want to talk about like her I’m guilty of it, for sure. as far as we, when we hear about trademarks and copyrights and patterns and people get them all confused, they’re very different things.

and people, especially when anything happens involving Gibson taking legal action, it seems to be especially loud, specifically for Gibson taking legal action because they, I think that we’re at a point where people.

for

Andrew: [00:23:42] a variety of reasons, earned earns, Gibsons received this reputation of being a little bit litigious, and whether or not I think that’s justified, I think is a separate conversation altogether. But I think today it would be really helpful to look at something that’s been brought up recently, which is Gibson’s legal.

Discourse with satellite amplifiers or MERS more specifically Adam Grimm, the man behind satellite amplifiers. And so what the goal is today is just kind of run through and take a look at some of the bits of the case here and in our best attempt to be objective, to kind of take ourselves out of it because we consider ourselves to be friendly to small builders and want to support them as much as possible.

We’re going to try and take ourselves out of that bias and just sit back and say, okay, well what’s actually going on here. Why is this happening?

Emily: [00:24:31] What are the actual rules surrounding what’s happening? and just to clear people up, satellite amplifiers, makes it has made for the past several years, their own version of the Coronet, which wasn’t originally an Epiphone guitar.

a very kind of hipster popular, I guess like it’s it’s

Andrew: [00:24:51] 1959. It’s a double cut single slab, buddy. Little on the thin side and honestly is

Emily: [00:24:58] one of those, their response to fender guitars. Cause they were just getting their butts kicked.

Andrew: [00:25:02] We’re on the street. Is that it’s exactly a Telecaster just with an extra cut.

So it’s a

Emily: [00:25:07] double pack. We’ll re okay. We’re, we’re really getting farther away from it. But, so Epiphone had previously made guitars called coronets and, now satellite amplifiers makes guitars and they’ve named their models. A Coronet, not a C model, not a. Other kids than him, but actually calling it a

Andrew: [00:25:25] Coronet, calling it a Coronet, it looks like a Coronet.

It’s got the same body shape and it’s got a different headstock, I think. But it’s the same Picard shape. I mean, there it’s very clearly what it is,

Emily: [00:25:41] right. I mean, it couldn’t be more clear. So now Gibson, even though, Adam was able to get a, pass a trademark on the name Coronet, because it hadn’t been previously registered by Gibson or had expired.

I’m not sure that’s something that we can talk to Clint about,

Andrew: [00:26:00] right. The information on that specifically is Gibson stopped making production models in 1999. And they have not made it since the argument that Gibson’s brought forth and the responses that they’ve been making it occasionally for signature artists on the side and offering that, and that gives them their claim.

But. That’s where it starts to get into the gray area of how long does it, how long does a company have to neglect a patent? If in fact they were neglecting a patent before it’s very good others.

Emily: [00:26:30] Yeah. So let’s, let’s let’s start let’s let’s start asking some questions.

Andrew: [00:26:34] Yeah. Clint, let me just start with saying

Clint Duke: [00:26:38] trademark issue.

Not a patent issue,

Emily: [00:26:40] right? Right. I know I said patent at least one.

Andrew: [00:26:46] Yeah,

Emily: [00:26:46] yes. I’ll fix it in post. No, I won’t.

Clint Duke: [00:26:50] Yeah, but yeah, I mean, PA patents and trademarks are different things. This is in this lawsuit, looks like it’s a. an issue in front of the trademark office. It’s not like in a district court or anything.

Andrew: [00:27:07] It’s specifically not a lawsuit all as far as I’m aware, that’s been

Clint Duke: [00:27:11] reported lawsuit.

It is a lawsuit it’s just before the trademark trial and appeals board.

Andrew: [00:27:18] Okay. I stand corrected. This is why we bring you on. This is why I should never be an armchair lawyer.

Emily: [00:27:23] It’s satellite being, it felt like being sued then. Is that what that means?

Andrew: [00:27:27] Yeah, it’s

Clint Duke: [00:27:28] a, it’s a petition for cancellation. So it looks like the satellite did register.

the cornet trademark. with the federal tax trademark office. And so they have a registered trademark and rights to it and give some, filed a petition to cancel their trademark. So they’ve got to prove that, that satellite doesn’t have the right to use that trademark.

Emily: [00:27:59] So, is, is there a reason you think, or it looks like that Gibson is springing this, this into the, bringing up this lawsuit now versus immediately after, or like five years from now?

Andrew: [00:28:12] Yeah.

Clint Duke: [00:28:13] I don’t know why. And that makes it a little difficult. I mean, if, if, and I’m just totally speculating because I’m not involved in the case at all. but my guess is that. They want to do some kind of reissue, you know, Gibson filed for the trademark for coordinate last month. and so they want to get a, they want to register a trademark for that, but it already exists.

And that’s why they’re filing a petition to cancel. it’s true.

Emily: [00:28:45] We have a certain amount of time before they can submit that petition. Like, do they have to like, is there like, a statute of limitations on it?

Clint Duke: [00:28:54] Yeah, definitely. it’s not root well, no, it’s not really the statute of limitations, but, after, after satellite, you know, registered or tried to register a Coronet, it would have gone through prosecution with one of their examiners.

And then when the examiner allows it, they publish it for opposition. And then you have, anybody has a few months to go and oppose that

Emily: [00:29:20] just a few months.

Clint Duke: [00:29:22] Yeah, and then not having it post, then it gets red. I just heard. And once it’s registered, you have to, you have to petition to cancel it, which is harder than just opposing it.

So yeah, it gives him, wasn’t looking at the specific trademark, when it was being prosecuted, so they didn’t get to oppose it and now they have to move to cancel it. I didn’t see that Gibson ever had, A registered trademark for credit, maybe, maybe Epiphone did. I don’t know, have they, I don’t know if they were ever a different entity.

Emily: [00:29:54] They were bought by Gibson at a certain point is my understanding. Yeah,

Clint Duke: [00:29:59] maybe Epiphone had a registered trademark, but I didn’t see one and there’s certainly not one that’s live. So my guess is they want to start doing something with that name. And so they’re trying to clear the streets.

Emily: [00:30:17] Is it, is it odd that such a large brand wouldn’t register a trademark for.

Well, they’re guitar names. Like there’s such a big brand.

Clint Duke: [00:30:27] Yeah. I mean, and you go back and forth on whether you want to try to register every one of your models because you don’t want to, you don’t want your trademark to be the product. Generally. You want the trademark to be the company. you know, it’s, that’s why they’ll grow Velcro.

Had it. Had kind of an advertising list. That was kind of funny where they were trying to get everybody to call a Belcore CRO brand and not just any hook and loop to be Oh,

Emily: [00:30:58] right. Because they didn’t want to become basically the generic name for it, like a Kleenex

Clint Duke: [00:31:03] yeah. Or a bandaid. the word for that is genericide where your trademark becomes so popular that it refers to the product instead of your.

Business and it becomes

Emily: [00:31:15] generic. Yeah. Like, I didn’t realize onesy was one of those trademark words until I worked for a company that sold baby body is, and we had to call them baby body suits. I’m like, that is not as cute as not cute at all.

Clint Duke: [00:31:30] No, no. Or like, or like jet skis, you know, jet ski. Doesn’t, isn’t a huge brand anymore, but everybody calls me jet-skis, which I think is huge.

Which I think is a huge failure in our collective vernacular because we should have always been called admin motorcycles in my opinion,

Emily: [00:31:51] just, God. Yeah. So. So I know, I just feel like brands. A lot of times now they do register trademark names for all their products. I mean, I think Earthquaker has registered trademark names before their pedals were even announced or released. Is there, do you think there’s a reason that brands would like, is, is, is there another reason that people, I guess I don’t really have a question there at all.

Do I.

Clint Duke: [00:32:19] No, I mean, is the reason is you want protection and if you can associate the word with your business, at least you have the presumption of the federal registration. I mean, it can be useful. but yeah, I was, I was. Talking to a different pedal maker. And he has, he has a registered trademark for each of his pedal mains, but not for the.

Not for the company name, which is crazy, but Hey, I’m not as a lawyer. So there

Emily: [00:32:54] you go.

So, so basically out of a scene that there was no trademark register for Coronet, he decides to start making them, he trademarks the name. So those months go by Gibson. Doesn’t come after him and now they’re filing for the cancellation. and I know that you said it’s harder to get the trademark back via a cancellation.

Does it, is this something that happens often? And if it does, is it usually successful?

Andrew: [00:33:27] Oh,

Clint Duke: [00:33:28] it really depends. It happens a lot. I mean, I’ve been involved in a lot of the trademark oppositions and cancellation proceedings. they get ugly and painful and almost never. Go to trial because the fact finding a discovery phase is a pain in the butt.

but, but yeah, the thing about a trademark is. The ultimate question is, are people going to be confused as to where this guitar is coming from? Well, people will an ordinary consumer think this is a Gibson product. This is Epiphone product, or it’s somehow affiliated with or sponsored by or approved by a Gibson Epiphone.

And. So satellite might run into some problems because the reason they picked it was because it was an Epiphone model that has some certain following.

Emily: [00:34:24] On the

Clint Duke: [00:34:24] other hand, they haven’t used that name in forever. The. At this point, satellite has a good argument that people don’t associate newly made guitars with that name, because you haven’t sold that guitar under that name in a long time.

And I think satellite filed an answer last week. Yeah. And that’s what are their grounds is that if you ever had rights in his name, you abandoned that line. And there’s, there’s a bunch of different things to consider an abandonment. But I mean, if you haven’t used it in commerce in three years, I believe there’s a presumption that you’ve abandoned it.

So Gibson you weren’t using it. We were the rational consumers associate us with Coronet rather than you.

Emily: [00:35:20] Yeah, that makes sense.

Clint Duke: [00:35:22] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we’ll see what happens. They, they both have arguments and what it comes down to is, you know, the judges on the trademark board are trying to see into the minds of an ordinary consumer.

And since that’s such a fact based question, it tends to be more expensive because the fact finding discovery is more intense. you have to really develop them, put forward your best arguments and you just have to see what, what did the judges say in, because that’s an expensive proposition. Yeah.

Emily: [00:36:00] It might depend on whether or not the judges play guitar.

Clint Duke: [00:36:05] Yeah. Like,

Emily: [00:36:08] I feel like from, from a distance you could, as Gibson say like, Hey, this is confusing. They’re the same shape and the same name. I think that that could, I can see it.

Clint Duke: [00:36:21] Yeah,

Emily: [00:36:21] but at the same time, if they haven’t used this trademark, this, this name, even since the nineties, that’s an, that’s an odd one.

Clint Duke: [00:36:29] Yeah. And there’s several factors there’s depending on the jurisdiction, but you look at at least six factors on consumer confusion and you look at how much the product costs, you know, you’re, you’re more likely to be mistaken. If you’re buying something for $3 at the checkout stand, then you’re. Or if you’re spending thousands of dollars on it, custom guitar, you know, you look at the overlap in marketing.

You look at advertising means, did I shut off here? Sorry. you look at a lot of it, things to try to get into the mind of the consumer and it’s, and it’s difficult because you’re trying to get the judge into the mind of the consumer that you are putting forward without letting the judge, you know, impose his or her own bias.

you know what he thinks I had a trademark case in the. 10th circuit court of appeals. And that was the biggest thing. There was a three judge panel and I was trying to convince the lead judge that look you can’t. You can’t just assume that you’re the consumer. You’re not allowed to say, this is what I see.

Therefore, this is how I rule. I mean, the law specifically says you don’t get to do that. Right. Right, right. It’s hard not to do that. It’s hard not to do that and say, well, I can be a consumer, you know, how do you know I don’t buy guitars? So it, it gets complex. It can get expensive. it’s possible that Gibson is just throwing a bunch of stuff up against the wall.

And then now that satellite has answered and indicated that it’s willing to put up the fight, would we see who wants to invest in that fight and how much.

Andrew: [00:38:21] So here’s the, here’s the question I wanted to pose, and I’m not sure that this is there’s any validity validity to this, but the thought that that kind of crossed my mind is so the Coronet is one of a couple of different of that profile models that all sport, the same or very similar body shapes.

so when w the two, the two are one is the Crestwood and the other one is the wheelchair. Crestwood was a, was a cornet with more, more on the spec list. but yeah, that was discontinued in 1970, I think, permanently and hasn’t been reissued. And then the other one, which has been more contemporarily reissued as the Epiphone wheelchair, and it’s got a very similar, it was originally made with the same body, that, that symmetrical look and is, was then modified to a slightly asymmetrical, but still based on the Coronet.

body shape and has been reissued as recently as 2009. Yeah. Would that have any bearing on whether or not there’s any claim? The Coronet of saying, Hey, Hey, under the name Epiphone, which Gibson does own, we re a very similar guitar from that same era in lineup originally, would that have any bearing on that?

Clint Duke: [00:39:32] Oh, yeah, it could. And we’ll see if they bring it up,

Andrew: [00:39:37] but that

Clint Duke: [00:39:38] raises another interesting question on whether the body shape itself can be the subject of a trademark. I think where we are now is it can, but the history of guitars in general, On the trademarking has been paid attention to the headstock and other, the body because the body shape itself is, is functional.

It, that’s how the guitar fits and feels and how you play it. And you don’t get a trademark, a function. And, and this is where I think they’re kind of blazed the trail way back when, where they got some rejections on their body shapes and decided to just go ahead with the headstock shakes, because you can make the headstock industry, if you want, it’s not really interacting with your body or, or how you’re playing it.

So that’s, that’s become. The signal of, of origin identifier, you know, where the goods are coming from. And I think Gibson is trying hard to bring back the idea that, that, that the body shape isn’t all function. There’s a definite definite design to it. But, but they have, they have history in the industry to fight against.

but I do think they’re, they have filed a bunch of registrations for body types, by shapes. So I think, I think they’re, I think they’re fighting to overturn the presumption in the industry right now.

Emily: [00:41:12] Well, I mean, they would put a lot of builders, potentially completely out of business. If no one else could build a Les Paul looking guitar, but how can they patent?

I’m sorry, how can they like make a trademark claim, possibly make a trademark claim against the body shape when they’re they’re their own body shapes are modeled after big speed guitars very clearly. And that the Coronet as Andrew. Getting into is essentially like a Telecaster with a mirror, like down this, like the middle of it.

Andrew: [00:41:46] Right? I mean, it’s shaped like a double cut Telecaster with some more beveled edges instead of the cutting board shape that the fender Telecaster has always supported. something I do want to point out real quick before we get too far past the headstock is. The Coronet over the years has had a couple of different headstocks.

You’ve got the one more pointing head sock with all six of the tuners on the top side, with a couple of rounded cutouts on the bottom. And the other one being is the three and three. I think there’s the Kalamazoo headstock shape. I’m trying to dig here for a moment. So then that’s what the, what satellites going for.

So there is precedent for one of the two headstock shapes being the trademark. So I guess my question is, let’s say, so let let’s run with. Hypothetical here for a moment. If Gibson is trying to register a trademark cancellation, would they, they go to read, follow through with the trademark registration for the Coronet.

Let’s say that they win. Are they able to trademark both headstock shapes under the same name or would they have to pick one?

Clint Duke: [00:42:53] Yeah, they’d be different registrations because the Mark we’re talking about now is just the word Mark. So it’s just the word Coronet, right?

Emily: [00:43:02] Nothing to like completely separate from the body shape.

Clint Duke: [00:43:05] Yeah. And it would be, they could file a separate design Mart for the body shape and they’d have to file a couple of different design marks for the different headstock shapes. But yeah, the fight right now is just using the word Coronet.

Andrew: [00:43:22] Okay, so that’s, that’s helpful. So theoretically satellite AMS could continue making them just under a different name if they decided to, if they ended up losing or give this up.

Clint Duke: [00:43:33] Yeah. And, you know, Gibson could come after them if they had rights in something.

Andrew: [00:43:41] So. Here’s one of the questions I want to ask out of a sense of honesty guide journalistic, trying to understand how the industry works from a business perspective. The question is, is Gibson doing this? Okay. So for reference a lot of big companies, it’s pretty normal for litigation to be ongoing between competitors and just kind of have it, have those wheels constantly spinning.

and I know that Gibson’s been purchased by a very large company. I think KKR is the, the hedge fund manager company that owns them at this point. and. So I wear my head and this is a lot of smaller builders, tend to operate on more of these handshake, kind of, Hey, I don’t be a jerk to you. You don’t be a jerk to me.

We kind of just work it all out and this as a community, and now we’ve got Gibson, which is a much bigger player. That’s more big business minded, regardless of whether or not that’s considered taboo in the, amongst the smaller builders of the industry, businesses business. So is what is this level of, is operation kind of normal?

Is this strange? Would you classify this as aggressive? I mean, we’re, what are we looking at here? Because part of what I’ve heard, a couple of people say is like, well, this is just business works and small builders can complain all they want, but this is just kind of how the game is played. And Gibson is just playing the game.

Well, So I just kinda want to hear your thoughts in that, in it, it as journalistic of a sense as

Clint Duke: [00:45:14] possible. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, the idea that the, that we have an efficient industry on the smaller side, I think may look good and we may want to believe that, but, but I do have several clients, you know, boutique builders and midsize builders in the space and.

The handshake deals don’t always work. and I think, I think we don’t like to make a big deal of them because there tends to, because a lot of advertising word of mouth happens on social media. And when someone starts complaining about getting sued, there’s a lot of backlash. And even if that lasts, it’s.

Justified. I think some of the smaller builders who rely on social media, word of mouth and, and, kind of groups of, followers or supporters, it, it makes them hesitant to go to the mattresses because it, it can backfire easily. But yeah, like you said, Gibson’s a bigger player and they have, they may have different.

Considerations. and when you’re in the trademark room, the idea is if you’re not protecting and enforcing your area of trademarks, you’d lose them. because the more people that, that, that use a name to reference something or use a descriptor to reference something, the more that becomes generally accepted.

and you just lose the rights in that because you’re not enforcing and it’s different from a copywriter, a patent because you get rights and those based on your creativity or your innovation, trademark, you get rights in those based on your use and specifically on your exclusive use. So. Policing your trademark portfolio is one of those things that companies have to do, but they don’t necessarily like doing it.

Emily: [00:47:27] Yeah. I mean, it sounds like that could be someone’s bigger companies. Like I would imagine you have an entire team of lawyers and I don’t know how smaller people, builders or creators who have trademarks even can police the use of them.

Andrew: [00:47:45] Oh, yeah, it’s, it’s

Clint Duke: [00:47:46] actually pretty easy. You just have a, you have a Google alert or you have, an alert on the trademark site.

So when anything you’re interested in, in your space or any of your registrations or names pop up is being filed for or approved, you get a notice and then you get to file that opposition instead of the cancellation proceeding. Gibson wasn’t monitoring this during the time it was being prosecuted. So now they’re there, they’re trying to cancel it after the fact.

Andrew: [00:48:21] Right. Right. And I think it’s interesting that you brought up the, kind of dispelling the notion that I introduced to the conversation of the handshake deals in the, in the more boutique end of the industry. And. I think that’s important to understand that not necessarily all of her favorite builders are lawyer free and just kind of running with it.

cause that’s something I’ve, that’s an argument

Clint Duke: [00:48:47] to me even. So

Emily: [00:48:50] it’s not very punk rock of them,

Clint Duke: [00:48:55] but

Andrew: [00:48:55] then this has a business and so. I, I find myself feeling I’m going to stick, stay away from sharing what my feelings are, but I think there’s a, there is a relatively fair argument to be made that Gibson is doing what it just needs to be doing to protect its intellectual property. And it just depends on how you look at it.

I think it has some validity,

Clint Duke: [00:49:19] but you could make that argument on the other hand. Is this even there in a lot of intellectual property anymore, or

Emily: [00:49:25] has it

it’s like, again, they haven’t used it since 1999, like officially, they, they, sensitively knew about this trademark or they knew that. These guitars were being made. Certainly they have talked to the builder, had taken pictures of his guitars at the Nam booth. and so that’s why we’re in, is for me in kind of bad, weird things.

I mean, I think one thing that’s funny. Okay. And, is that so fender and Gibson, both have marauders have made guitars called marauders. First fender made them from like 66 for a couple of years and later in like the nineties maybe, but then in the seventies, Gibson came out with their Marauder. So I just think, I just think that’s kind of funny here.

Satellite is, is paying homage to these guitars that they love. they’re calling them Chordettes and, and they’re actually coronets, but back in the seventies fender, well, Gibson started making marauders that, you know, they weren’t like the fender. Marauders. Not at all. I mean, I find that would think that would be just as confusing.

So what’s the Marauder, is

Andrew: [00:50:43] it. I mean, there’s, there’s a number of cases you could look at before we run out of time. One of the questions I want, I wanted to kind of throw Clints weight, sort of on the same topic is one of the other things I’ve heard from a lot of folks is like, Hey, why can’t Gibson be more like fender.

Fender’s pretty cool that like with the Sur, of the world. And there’s so many folks that make fenders style guitars that are out there, the

Emily: [00:51:06] column F style and T style.

Andrew: [00:51:08] Right. Tom Anderson and Nash, and you can go through the list. so is that really the case? Is, is it truly, in fact that Fender’s super chill this and they’re just going with it.

Yeah. Guys go for it. Or is there something more at play that provides less of a contrast between the two juggernauts in the industry for guitar builders?

Clint Duke: [00:51:29] Well, I. Yeah, I don’t know. I think it, it depends on what their, what their trademark philosophy is. And we’re just talking about, you know, one area of their IP portfolio, but we know, we know that back in earlier days and her made the conscious decision to say we are, we’re basing our trade dress on the headstock bye.

And. The body becomes fair game and it would be really hard for them to go pull that back. Now, now, if, if someone they have, I’m sure they have registration zone, Stratocaster and Telecaster, I’m sure they’re not happy when people say this isn’t a Stratocaster. They probably get a cease and desist and change it to S style, you know?

Similarly Gibson will be happy if people call their guitar, Les Paul style kind of thing. So it, it, it kinda just depends on where they’ve decided to draw the line and what the execs think. And, you know, honestly what their team of attorneys tell them. And you know, that attorneys might say the same thing.

You, you, if you want these rights in your portfolio, you have to enforce them. Otherwise you risk losing them. And you know, Gibson’s changed executives a couple of times and, and. Maybe they’re just coming to terms with where they want to draw that line. And there maybe they’re drawing a line too far forward and, and maybe they’ll get pushed back.

Maybe they’ll decide it’s not worth paying their lawyers so much to go after everything. but maybe they want to, maybe they want to see meds. Their namesake in industry. So I do think it’s a, it’s a business decision. Are you, what do you look like? You’re overreaching or are you effectively giving away?

Your innovation and your negative drives. And, you know, as the lawyer, we explained the pluses and minuses and say, you have to make a decision. how much do you want to push? How much do you want to pay us to push? And the pluses and minuses of what, what the outcome could be. So, yeah, I think fender, I think fender seems to.

Play nicer because it doesn’t go after. Yeah. It doesn’t go after what looks like Amash, you know, but in this, in this case, gives it as the argument. But look here, you’re making a guitar that looks like our guitar and you’re using the name that we used. The only reason you’re doing that is to call attention to our guitar.

So you’re, you’re trading, you’re trading on our designs. You’re enriching yourself on our designs. And, but then satellites says, yeah, but you through with the design, you haven’t used it in decades.

Emily: [00:54:47] I have a question. Is it. Is it, will it be, do you think, in your opinion, as someone who’s doesn’t have like an intimate understanding of the case, would it basically be the end of it?

If Gibson can prove that they were making coronets during, during this, supposedly it wouldn’t make a difference. Or it wouldn’t be damning.

Clint Duke: [00:55:10] Oh, if they can prove they’re making them

Emily: [00:55:12] yeah. If they could prove they were making them.

Clint Duke: [00:55:14] Yeah. And they have to prove that they’re well, and can go back to the name because it’s the, fire’s over the name.

They have to prove that they were using. The name in commerce during that time,

Emily: [00:55:28] this can con can commercially mean, does it have to be, does it mean it has to be advertised on the main website or if it’s like in some catalog that people can take a look through when they’re choosing what guitars they want to, that they want to have a Coronet bills?

Like, what is that commercial, if it’s something that you offer, but maybe like as the secret menu.

Clint Duke: [00:55:52] Yeah, definitely. I mean, if you can prove you were using it in commerce, but then if your use is diminimous, it doesn’t have that, the weights that if you were using it freely and, and, and to a large extent. So we go back to trying to convince the judge that’ll that you did use it.

And a little bit of uses is good enough to go over to overcome army

So

Emily: [00:56:22] like other things it’s not a black and white issue.

Clint Duke: [00:56:26] No. And that’s, we, we, we call them issues of fact, you know, it’s because it’s not clear cut. the judges have to weigh a bunch of stuff on the right hand and a bunch of stuff on the left hand. And. The lawyers argue their side as hard as they can.

And then just cross your fingers that the judge sees it your way. But yeah, I don’t, I don’t think this is one that, that is that’s totally one sided. you know, that said, yeah, that said, is it how much of a fight is it worth? You know, are both sides ready to spend, you know, 2,500, $250,000 over this name, or once each side spent 30 grand, are they going to come to an agreement

Emily: [00:57:24] now?

I know what

Clint Duke: [00:57:25] happens in almost all of my cases that are trademark oppositions and cancellations.

Emily: [00:57:32] They usually settle.

Clint Duke: [00:57:33] Yeah. You said it all because, and that’s, and that’s a big part of my job actually is saying, you know, IP is about money. It’s economics. It’s a lot of ones and zeros and decimal points. And half of my job is taxing to the client.

If you’re not emotionally invested in this, is it worth writing me another $25,000 check to deal with it? Okay.

Yeah. And then, and usually they say, well, but I am emotionally invested in that. And then I have to say, okay, just so you’re realizing that the $25,000 check you’re going to have to write is based on your emotion. If you’re okay with that, let’s move forward.

Emily: [00:58:26] Cool. well this, this, okay. can I just go off topic really quickly? Cause there’s another kind of trademark dispute in the music industry that I would just like, I have one question about it really, truly. actually maybe two. But are you familiar with the lady a saga at all?

Clint Duke: [00:58:45] No.

Emily: [00:58:47] Oh no. Okay. Well, I do, you know, the band lady antebellum their country band.

Well, they announced that they were going to change their name to lady a. And when they did, there’s a singer in Seattle. Who’s been going by lady aid for 20 years. But about 10 years ago, the band lady antebellum took out trademark on. Lady a however, they both been existing in the same industry for at least 10 years with the band having this trademark and the singer performing, doing it to make money, never getting a cease and desist or any sort of letter from them.

They claimed they didn’t know that she existed. I just don’t understand if that trademark should have been granted. How she would have put, possibly known to chat to, to oppose it. And if they’ve not been enforcing it for the past 10 years against someone who’s probably played, you know, similar festivals to them cause she’s country or their country and she’s blues.

It’s just such a weird case. I don’t really know what’s going to happen.

Clint Duke: [00:59:57] Yeah. So lady aid didn’t have a registration, right? She did

Emily: [01:00:02] not just a little, little singer songwriter type, not well more than that, but like versus the major label country star.

Clint Duke: [01:00:12] Right. So that’ll be interesting because you don’t have to get a registration to have trademark rights.

I mean, just using your name and commerce gives you certain rights. and you’ll see it a lot. You’ll see some, you’ll see a brand name that says TM. And that just means trademark. I’m using this name as a trademark to refer to me as the source of these goods or services. and that’s fine. And the strength of your common law trademark depends, basically on your fame.

how well known is the trademark, in what industry and how far geographically. And, so it’s very common for two companies or two businesses or two artists that have the same name and to operate without running into each other, especially if they’re in different industries or fields or different parts of the country.

And so your trademark can be limited. Based on your use to your field, your industry and your geographic location. and then it’s, if those two brands start to expand and bump into each other, then there can be a problem, which is probably what happened here. So they, they, now that they’re expanding and start to overlap, they realize that there’s a problem.

and so maybe the one can show prior use and fame in one geographic location, and the other can show it in a different one. The one with a federal registration has a presumptive right. All over the country because it’s on the federal register and therefore enforceable, everywhere in the federal Republic.

and, and we’ll see what happens

Andrew: [01:02:05] generally,

Clint Duke: [01:02:07] generally.

Andrew: [01:02:08] in a case like

Clint Duke: [01:02:08] that, how I mentioned, we almost always settle. we had turned into a coexistence agreement and we just basically say, here’s, here’s our lines in the sand. You don’t come in my half of the sandbox. I don’t come into your half or maybe there’s a gray area where we’re both allowed, but don’t go any further.

And I won’t go any further. That can happen. But if you’re dealing with it in federal court and one side has a federally registered trademark, or you see the circle R that means your trademark is registered. that

Andrew: [01:02:43] that side has

Clint Duke: [01:02:44] presumption of, of use based on the. The filing of the trademark. So

Emily: [01:02:51] yeah,

Clint Duke: [01:02:52] it’s good.

It’s good to get the registration.

Emily: [01:02:56] Yeah. When in doubt, register, register your trademarks. A yeah.

Andrew: [01:03:00] All right. So I’ve got one more question before we release you from, from the, hold we’ve got on ya. Yeah. So one of the concepts you brought up is it’s based, it’s going to be based on the judge’s assessment of what the consumer market thinks.

Is there anything that the consumer market can do to sway things one way or the other, if they feel strongly about supporting either satellite or Gibson in this?

Clint Duke: [01:03:24] Oh, man. Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know,

Andrew: [01:03:31] like, is this the sort of thing where it’s like, if you get a hundred thousand signatures on a petition or something like that, where it would have any bearing, I

Emily: [01:03:37] mean, you could maybe give money to a satellite for his legal defense.

Clint Duke: [01:03:43] I mean, it’s possible. And then, then the one lawyer could bring that up. Hey, look at all these people who associate coordinate with satellite, Yeah, that could be evidenced to help, but know if this is a case that’s worth lots of money. You hire a survey expert to be an expert witness and he takes he, or she takes a survey.

and then you produce those results and testify about them to the court. Here’s what a survey of a thousand people in the industry is. And they say they identify, I was satellite. And then the other side does the exact same thing and say, no, that survey is wrong because it’s using too small of a subset of the relevant consumer base, or they ask questions that were biased toward one side or the other.

Here’s my survey. And it says the people associated with the phone, send it out all honestly. No, it just depends on the lawyers and the experts to make the argument.

Emily: [01:04:49] Well, cool.

Andrew: [01:04:50] I figured that was a question that a lot of our listeners would be interested in hearing. And I really appreciate you answering,

Clint Duke: [01:04:58] sorry.

It’s less cynical.

Andrew: [01:05:05] No, I mean, that’s totally all right. I mean, there’s, we’re definitely stepping into a world where it’s not necessarily the layman’s. Hi.

Emily: [01:05:18] Yeah,

Andrew: [01:05:18] not the relatives. Sorry. The lumens realm is not, nobody can be an expert in everything and I’m not sure I would ever expect everyone to be experts in IP law, but we were all reacting to this because so many of us are so invested in, the companies involved in whether we were friends with any of the parties, et cetera.

I mean, there’s, this is people’s livelihood at stake and people’s livelihood that we resonate with. And so. There’s always going to be that gut response. And so the followup, the followup to that is, well, what is actually going on? And I think you’ve given us a really good picture here of getting a decent picture.

Is that what that actually looks like in reality, what’s going on behind the scenes, helping understand the details of this particular case. And I think that helps in the future will help me inform my understanding of. Are there similar cases that are bound to pop up. So we really appreciate it. I think this is really invaluable information and we really appreciate you coming on the show too.

I share that with us.

Clint Duke: [01:06:18] Yeah, no problem. You know, I hope you get a couple of listeners who mirrored out over IP, like ideas.

Emily: [01:06:24] I think a lot of more people do then, then you might think my husband is specifically will very much enjoy this episode.

Clint Duke: [01:06:31] Oh, cool.

Emily: [01:06:33] Yeah. if you are, if you enjoyed this sort of get us set, please consider leaving us a review on iTunes that really helps us out.

we also have a YouTube that you can subscribe to check out demos there, and other fun content in, in the works, hit a subject, get offset podcasts.com. You can find a leak link there to our Patrion. If you want to support us on Patrion. You can support us for as little as a buck a month for 25 bucks a month.

I will write you a song I’m currently early in the process of writing a song for our first ever $25 or a month. Patrion Noah Burnett.

Clint Duke: [01:07:10] Woo.

Emily: [01:07:11] Woo. So,

Clint Duke: [01:07:13] yeah, that’s that’s

Andrew: [01:07:14] I, I met, I met to say who, but like in an owl sense, like,

Emily: [01:07:18] Ooh, yeah, no one likes to owl, so everyone, please send him owl names.

Andrew: [01:07:25] In fact, if you’re, as you’re listening to this episode right now, Please make an owl sound wherever you are, and then look around and see who notices.

Don’t don’t check it out on this. I just seriously sit down and be like, whew. I just wait for any responses. I guarantee you quality entertainment for a lot less money than drugs.

Emily: [01:07:51] Okay. Well, thanks for listening. Thanks for understanding, I guess. Is there anything else?

Andrew: [01:07:58] I

Clint Duke: [01:07:58] don’t think so.

Andrew: [01:08:08] All right. Well, thanks for listening. Thanks for understanding. My name is Andrew.

Emily: [01:08:12] I’m Emily.

Clint Duke: [01:08:14] And I’m your blues lawyer .